in badminton is the line in or out

Folio one of 5

mark_palmos Regular Member

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EDIT: answer to this long thread is this:
I got an email from a gentleman who works for Badminton World Federation, and he said it is definitely based on physical impact, non overlap... so in my photos in the mail service below, the bird is OUT! This kinda makes it piece of cake to determine from a nearby ON court position (easier maybe than for a line judge), considering if you are on the court and near the shuttlecock yous can see if there is any "daylight" between the white line and the white cork. If and so, it is out. If not, it is in.
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ORIGINAL Mail:
Hello all. I wonder if you lot could help me analyze the rule near what part of the shuttlecock determines whether a line call is on or out...

In my badminton lodge we have been debating whether IN and OUT calls are fabricated similarly to tennis and football, where the brawl/shuttlecock is viewed from above, and if any part of the shuttle cork is OVER the line, information technology is IN.

Just some in our club say that because the lesser flake of the cork, which is the part that touches the ground, is several millimetres back from the edge of the cork, it is NOT adamant similar lawn tennis or football, merely the eye of the lesser of the cork, which is the only part that TOUCHES. Of course you cannot see this part of the cork anyway, And then which is information technology? I would love to know, and if possible, to go a rule book quote. I take been searching for the reply for days, and have not found it.

Cheers,

Mark Palmos.

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mark_palmos Regular Member

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Hi, I think it does matter, quite a lot. Firstly, 4mm is a lot of "fudge room" ... Information technology should be exactly determinable. If you see the two photos, the one bird looks in, the other out, all considering the one viewed from the side you tin can see under the widest part of the cork... So if this dominion was made articulate, players would be able to make allowances for the view from in a higher place vs from the side... But every bit far every bit I know there is no rule which says which part of the cork is the scrap that you approximate by! In that location actually should be.
Mark.

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I retrieve hawkeye uses the full diameter of the cork to determine if the shuttle is in or out, rather than the single "point" or much smaller circular area that's touching the surface, which is why information technology's e'er a perfect circle with the diameter equal to the cork. From this, I have to deduce that in/out is based upon the widest diameter of the cork. Your example above would therefore be considered in.
The perfect circle is reasoned in the simple graphic animation, right?
From my agreement at a sportsman i ever thought the contact point of the cork is deciding. I take never investigated about it though because (at least i idea so) it was the only logical way for me. So I clearly disagree with mark_palmos "in" shuttle.

It tin happen that the cork landed out just the feathers affect the line. That is out for me besides.
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If you are just playing with plastic shuttles then it cannot be too serious anyway. Similar others have said, it is so split second that you should probably just play a let and move on each time if it is causing such carp.
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I would've assumed that merely the contract point should be considered but then why is the Eagle shadow and so big? The contact area is tiny.
mark_palmos Regular Member

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Amazing that nobody really knows the respond! BTW the fact we use plastic is besides the point. Are there ane ready of rules for feathers and another for plastic that doesn't matter? What a snobbish attitude.
I'm really curious equally to which it is. To me the "ball" of the cork makes sense seeing its impossible to see contact indicate unless you have your face on the court. Tennis and football use this method, im guessing, because it'due south a lot easier to decide accurately.

But I'grand interested in the facts, non theories... Anyone know?

Thank you,
Mark.

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LenaicM and Cheung like this.
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I believe from my experience playing badminton since babyhood, watching it on TV and live also since childhood, it should be the contact point.
But anyway, usually @phihag will know the answer
Whatever opinion Phil?
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the contact area is not that tiny
anyway, if you recollect nigh it, there is the hawkeye which result in a shape that is not a circle shape, merely instead is ellipse when it travels in fast speed with bending
this support the idea that it is the contact point that matters instead of the 'perfect circle' of the cork
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The contact expanse of whatsoever circular or spherical object with a apartment surface is literally a single indicate. The visible circle so must be due to pinch of the cork similar to that of a tennis brawl when information technology hits the surface. Since some amount of the cork will always compress every bit the shuttle lands from a practical perspective information technology would be close if non the total bore of the cork is considered every bit in or out. Only in a theoretical perspective where you place the shuttle on the ground can yous say that simply the contact point matters, simply of grade I was referring to a practical perspective only.
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Formally, the IRS informs the umpire just about In/Out/No Decision. HawkEye'southward animation graphic is meant for the public layperson and has no relation with the actual laws. That'due south why when the animation is seriously wrong it'due south no big deal.
The rules are simple:
There is no mention of a item perspective, or some function of the shuttlecock.
Equally such, the merely estimation I run across is that when the shuttle get-go hits the ground, that expanse where it hit counts.

I venture that this area is extremely modest, around the size of an atom (if I'm wrong: @speCulatius please right me on that).

Very sensibly, this ways we tin can regard the contact area as a point (at least for man scales ≫1nm), not an expanse, and therefore don't have to discuss near any intersection; if that signal is on the line it's in, if it's non information technology's out.
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But if a small area from the Eagle shadow touches the line the shuttle is considered in, which contradicts this.
Lol... the contact betoken is not 1 atom width. In that location's compression of the cork head and also pinch of the mat surface on contact... the animation graphics do look appropriately right sized, and they only look big when the graphics go into zoom manner.
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This was my point and hence I say that in a practical sense, a circumvolve close to the width of the cork is used to decide if the shuttle is in or out. Just in a theoretical sense, where the cork is ideally perfectly spherical, and is placed on the flooring, then the contact point would be a single point. Hence, if the above state of affairs occurred every bit in the photos Hawkeye would've chosen information technology in.
Btw I'chiliad not saying in any way that eagle is infallible, only that since it is used to determine whether the shuttle is in or non, we can infer then what constitutes as in or out.
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How then? Again, the HawkEye animation is for the public, and completely unrelated to the actual law.Forgive me, just my agreement of physics is that, barring air pressure (which I'd thought nosotros could ignore here), pinch merely occurs after contact of two objects (shuttle and floor). Do you disagree?
Assume at that place is a fourth dimension when the shuttle is merely in a higher place the mat, and a time somewhat later when shuttle and mat are in contact (or, to use the official diction, the shuttle hits the floor). If nosotros bisect, i.e. go to the time in the middle between both timestamps, we can still evaluate whether shuttle and mat are in contact. If they are, we can evaluate an earlier time, if they are not, a later fourth dimension. We tin do this bisection until nosotros arrive at physical limits, tin't we?
And at that timescale, everything is so incredibly slow that I would very much surprised if any two actions happen during one tick.
Of course, I am assuming that we can precisely evaluate whether two concrete objects are in contact, by listing each to a fix of atoms, and precisely determine whether whatever ii atoms are in contact.

And then where practise you see the mistake in my reasoning, apart from Lol?
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Example:

Pause at 0:51 and y'all can see that the contact point is outside the line, but the shadow is used and hawkeye called that in.

I take to say that I feel like hawkeye isn't equally adept in badminton as tennis from what I've seen. One affair really irks me: Hawkeye always show shuttles as round. A fast smash will cause the shuttle to skid a bit before bouncing upward, why is it not oval shaped? The slip is clearly visible on a fast tennis shot only not for shuttles. This brings me to think that for badminton, in fact it is pre-determined, as in, hawkeye uses a stock-still circle irrespective of the type of shot played.

Edit: For people too lazy to try to pause at 0:51
^ We have to keep in mind that Hawkeye is not 100% accurate... there's a +/- error tolerance involved, just as in whatsoever measurement system. I seem to call back in tennis it's +/- 2mm or so.
In some of those unusual Hawkeye results in badminton, I'm sure it'due south due to those mistake tolerances, plus there'due south also the unusual flying dynamics of the shuttle (that can be affected by typhoon, shuttle wear, etc) which is much more complex than a simple projectile like a tennis ball.
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But this is irrelevant to the accurateness of hawkeye. I'g not maxim that in the above situation, hawkeye predicted the flight and landing of the shuttle perfectly. All I'm saying is based upon what was shown, eagle determined the shuttle to be "in" with respect to where the shuttle is, despite the contact betoken being outside the line. All the same, we tin can clearly come across that a role of the cork is indeed in, and this coincides with the circular shadow shown and the concluding call. From this, nosotros have to infer that whether a shuttle is in or not must be based upon a circle of some diameter (presumably equal to the cork), and not simply the tiny point of contact.